And yet it???s like incredibly poignant, or, it hits you and it???s almost a way of creating an image in the mind of the listener.Dan Graham: I also think, because I can understand this, I think Jack was afraid of success.Doug Eklund: Jack Goldstein was an artist who was in California at a school called Chouinard, which was???Dan Graham: Chouinard.Doug Eklund: Yeah, and Chouinard was, kind of, the