During interviews on Democracy Now! in April and May 2012[14] with elaboration in July 2012 at 2600???s hacker conference HOPE[4] and at DEF CON a couple weeks later,[15]Binney repeated estimates that the NSA (particularly its Stellar Wind project[16]) had intercepted 20 trillion communications ???transactions??? of Americans such as phone calls, emails, and other forms of data (but not including